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Does the Furry Fandom Really Suck This Badly? What Is YOUR Opinion?

10/30/2013

11 Comments

 
Dear Furries,

Last week I posted this letter about the idea of some furries forming a community. While I have serious doubts of the practicality of furries creating a functioning, economically independent community, Papabear does still maintain that furries do form at least an ersatz community, one very loosely organized, but still a community. One furry posted a response, however, that I find quite disturbing, especially since I have been hoping to form an organization of furries.

I am posting the letter here. This furry--well, not even sure if this is from a furry—has a very negative opinion of furries. My concern is this: how prevalent is this opinion? Do YOU feel this way? Do a lot of furries feel this way? If so, then any efforts toward creating the AFA would be utterly futile. 

Do you feel like you're part of a community or not? Please post your opinions following this letter. Thank you.

***

I can't believe that NO ONE MENTIONED that being a furry is simply a matter of self-declaration and how this complete lack of control over who gets to be a furry -- a precedent set from the fandom's infancy -- would throw a whole pile of monkey wrenches into any plans for a "furry community". Furry fandom indiscriminately imports personalities with diametrically opposed and incompatible values, ethics, outlooks, and attitudes. Included in the mix are sociopaths with serious character defects, but you can't kick them out because the fandom is a nerd herd and therefore overcompensates societal rejection with all-encompassing unconditional inclusivity. Furry is based off an infatuation with anthropomorphic animals. That shared value is superficial. As such, one is, unfortunately, NOT necessarily more likely to find "kindred spirits" within the fandom as without it. People are wildly different. Anthros mean different things to them. Think about Na'vi, Otherkin, Therians, plushies, rule 34, fursuiters, murrsuiters, gigglefairy sparkledogs, My Little Pony, foxes and wolves, videogamers, centaurs, Nazi furs, weres, haunted attraction furs, adult babyfurs, (oh hell, I'm not itemizing all the sub-fetishes that can go in conjunction with furry), Sonic fans, TMNT, (oh hell, insert a list of all the cartoon shows' and werewolf movies' fanbases, yada yada), daddy furs, civilized noble savage furs, con-goers, trans-humanists, Christian, (oh fuck, tack on a list of all the religions too -- including atheism), gay, bi, straight, asexual (LGBTQIAlphabet soup), lulz troll furries, imageboard furries and MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE -- including those aspects of furry that do not wish to be defined or sub-categorized and remain stubbornly nebulously uncodified. None of which even begins to describe all the FAR MORE IMPORTANT DEEPER MERITS AND FLAWS to consider in selecting fellow tribes-people in a proposed budding "furry" community that these people's individual moral compasses or lack thereof (regardless of whatever combination of sub-sub-sub-subcultures they ascribe to) could have carried them off to. So to sit these people down, who in truth have little in common and little interest in each other, and say, "Okay, here's a system of rules we need to play by to function as a community", misses the point by a factor of 9,000. Furry isn't a community. There may be communities within furry, but furry is not and cannot be a community as a whole. Communities start with shared values, ideals, and even aesthetics (the images and interactions with reality people want to associate with). If you want to start a community with those aspects of the fandom that are even remotely-possibly capable of it, starting with the love of animal people is a POOR CHOICE. Intentional communities crave balanced and stable ethos, pathos, and logos that justifies the investment of faith, hard work, and sacrifice that goes into creating and maintaining them. That goes far beyond the childish things of a protracted childhood that furry is mostly comprised of. Furries don't even really have an identity as evidenced by the multitudinous different responses by asking any one of them, "What is a furry?" So how do you propose to make a community out of a people that aren't even a tribe, or profoundly disinterested in such by their simple natures, if you will?

* * *

Papabear posted: 

Your argument seems to be that we can't have a furry community because we are too diverse. By that same logic, the United States should not exist because we have people of too many races, religions, political beliefs, etc. I believe that any group of people can come together if they find a unifying cause. 

* * *

The writer returned, saying:

That's the point. Communities have unifying causes and codes. The U.S. is a superpower nation with solemn oaths and duties, a legal system, and constitution, so the comparison to furry fandom, which has none of those things (and lacks untold more in such a comparison), is laughable and invalid. I'm shocked you would dare compare the two.

I'm not talking about making the fandom into a nation. I'm talking about how the anti-structure of the fandom, through the malfeasance of enforced amorality, prevents it from forming so much as a simple single functioning HOUSE -- though blind people still treat it as such (much to their own detriment).

The fandom IS highly entropic. No one can MAKE a TANGIBLE community (Internet community doesn't count) out of the fandom (or anything else outside of junk merchandise to hawk). 

As you all have already agreed upon the prior sentence in an earlier reply to another.

I'm saying the REASONS for that intangibility are: as soon as anyone says, "Furry is THIS." or "It's NOT THAT." in the attempt to create the causes for forming a standard to create structure for the impetus of a real community, they are instantaneously WRONG and abruptly called out on their bullshit because NO ONE gets that kind of authority to say what is and isn't allowed to be a part of furry fandom.

Furry fandom IS different from other fandoms because people within it do treat it like a community and welfare network. The problem is, they don't exercise any standards or structure, and are quite opposed to the idea, which attracts exploitative personalities like flies to a corpse. Not to mention the fandom is, consequently, not exactly conducive to life aspirations; absent of the hallmark of value of a true community. If this fandom is supposed to run like a community, as many of its motley crew of undisciplined, directionless, and many times, amoral members intend, its current state would be best likened unto a poorly run frat house. At best.

As for inclusivity: we're all excited to meet new peoples and new ways of doing things. The ironic hypocrisy is that different cultures came about through having different standards that made them interesting and unique. The negative value of indiscriminate inclusivity is that it destroys the standards of judgement of what to include and not include in a culture that makes it unique. Bring everyone in under One Big Tent(tm), regardless of what they can do, under a unifying cause, and more often than not, you may be unintentionally describing a con game.

Keep it real. You can have either indiscriminate quantity or discriminating quality (or both, if you employ shrewd Machiavellian techniques and divide them into layers and use one as a readily disposable shield to protect the more valuable other). Discrimination is not always evil: only when it's prejudiced is discrimination wrong. When you're at the supermarket determining which produce is green, ripe, and rotten, you're engaging in a form of discrimination. Tribe-selecting can, honestly, be analogous to selecting produce based on prospects' values, attitudes, and life choices. When selecting members of a community, it's important to discriminate APPROPRIATELY for its survival and ability to thrive.

I'm sure that to spend so much time wasting so many words describing a fandom about anthropomorphism will be seen as stupid by those not pressed against the fandom's glass ceiling dividing fantasy from reality. That's because the (un)imaginative minds of the lowest common denominator goes nowhere else but straight to raping targets incapable of consent as soon as the idea of real world anthro community is mentioned and are quick to either break out the torches or start humping -- or both. If people are SERIOUS about creating a furry community, the reason it is neigh impossible is due to the shallow parameters they've set for what being a furry means, and the lowest common denominators -- neither fit to lead or follow nor walk hand in hand -- that inhabit the fandom as result. 

Construction is not impossible under the strictest definition, but remember that communities are held together by the glue of ideology. Be prepared to invest tons of psychic energy within the internal worlds of yourself and your members to bail out and rise above the muck and set up a defensive perimeter around whatever little corner of this surprisingly very malevolent swamp you're intending to haunt.

Thanks, in no small part, to the non-definition of furry, IT'S NOT JUST THE "NON-FURRIES" YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT.
11 Comments
DT
10/30/2013 05:05:15 am

Wow I can't believe an opinion letter turned into this. O.=.o

Anyway, I disagree with this person. From my experiences in the fandom and with local furry groups, is that we tend to join together as a whole. (Please note I am using a small group of around 40-80 furs) as I've noticed, everyone seems to get along. We have our own leaders that set up meets and dictate the rules in group chat (GroupMe is wonderful), but aren't so strict as to restrict or kick people out without just cause (such as one who was irresponsibly attacking others as a "joke" and went to far).

To better simplify where I'm going, the fur group I'm in. Is pretty much it's own community. I think the writer's viewpoint is too negative and one-sided. Sure there's going to be some slip-ups if a furry community is created (IF being a very big word. This is all hypothetical), but there are plenty of slip ups in "normal" society. We still have criminals, mentally ill, handicapped, or just weirdos. But we have a huge influx of creative, nice people as well. If everything is handled smartly and NOT just by one person, then I believe it could work out. It would be rocky at first, but I think it could work.

I don't think the opinion of the writer is shared a lot. In fact, I'm quite sure there are several people who might be very angry and offended by such a statement. Now I'm not saying either is correct or incorrect, I'm stating my thoughts. I do not think this opinion is shared much. I believe that most furries are fairly tolerant and want to meet other furs and feel a part of their own community, however loosely or strongly organized it may be.

Reply
Critter link
10/30/2013 06:05:43 am

I responded in the thread, I'll add a response here.

The furries I know locally as a whole haven't been a very good experience for me, partly because there are vanishingly few anywhere near my age. However, there are individuals within the group who are great. And in the wider furry world I have some very good friends who have been a positive addition to my life.

Having had some contact with groups of people in the furry demographic (very heavily weighted towards young people and also towards people who are not part of the middle class mainstream) I would say furries in general do better than their non-furry cohorts.

Co-housing and other sorts of alternative communities have a lot of drama and often founder, it's part of the human condition. The tension between community and individuality has always been with us.

Reply
Troj
11/16/2013 11:26:32 am

<<
Co-housing and other sorts of alternative communities have a lot of drama and often founder, it's part of the human condition. The tension between community and individuality has always been with us.>>

Well put.

I have lived in CoHousing myself, and yes, you better believe there is drama.

Community living can be rewarding, but it is also challenging.

Reply
Dan the bear
10/30/2013 02:11:11 pm

Well, i think this person has got a very lmited vision about what a fandom is. Maybe he has been in to super organized comunities, where everybody look like clones. To start, the furry is a sub culture, wich means it includes all kind of expressions. Like in many subcultures and urban tribes, you can find all kind of individuals, from those who embrace with passion the fandom, taking it to extremes, to people who just enjoy some parts of it, that fulfills their needs and they still feel lart of the comunity.

It can be found in many subcultures, since goths, otakus, comic book geeks, even real life superheros, that are out there dressed as heroes, doing chatiries or actively fighting crime. There's always diversity in the comunity. And it may not be as organized as a religion or the boy scouts of america, who share oaths, values and anthems, and may be a virtual comunity in many cases, well HELLO mister caveman! we live in a world where internet has become an important part of life and society and LOTS of comunities move in the Cyberspace. The virtual thing doesnt count? well... tell that to all the cyber petitions, all the information that organized news never show and people themselves post in the internet.

Furry comunity moves, is active and organizes itself in and outside the internet. Its some klind of organized chaos, but if it was not a comunity and there were not a feeling of belong, there wouldnt be furmeets, fur cook outs, and furcons! I mean... if all this is happening since years ago.. there should be something that all furs have in common and make people say. those are furs!

All comunites are formed by small subgroups, and all them give it union and all of them have certains things in common. And to be honest, i belive the comunity will continue formany many years. :)

Reply
Howard
10/30/2013 08:28:46 pm

Wow, that was quite a reading. hum.
Ok, I believe I can understand, and maybe share part of the concerns the OP presents here. I would say I sit in a gray area here. I don't think it's impossible to create a furry community, but I admit that I believe placing -furry- as the only common denominator might be a bit too optimistic.

Most of the other cummunity of this type that can form groups have indeed other common values, economic, religious, or even views on the way of life. I for one, and to give an example, am ecologist, and I could hardly stand living in community with someone not at least mildly respectful of nature.

And yet, I found myself in furmeets where I walked away before it ended because I was laughed at and shunned for picking up the plastic bags, bottles and other stuff the group was nonchalantly throwing on the parc's ground. Cartoons and love of nature are what drew me to furries. They didn't shared my views at all. A couple where there from zoo, one from lycans and some where fursuiters, I don't know for the rest, but in the end, we didn't shared much more than a label.

On the other end, a few of my very best friends comes from furries as well, people with wich I cna freely speak of my opinions on the supernatural, religions, nature, sociology, and such.

I can understand and relate to the OP concern of trying to unite 'furries' under nothing more than this name, because he's right on one point, unlike scouts, nations or any orginzed groups, there's no one to say "yes you're a furry, because furries ar X, Y and Z" or "no you're nnot, because..." And that's a good and bad point all the same, cause it allowed me to meet peoples I really would never have met otherwise, with different spiritual or political views than myself, and that's all well. Sometime it didn't worked out and sometime we did managed to talk, discuss and come out maybe a bit wiser, each of us.

I see the "geek" community is called in comparison, but really, it's indeed that close in the sense that there is a million interpretations of what a geek is. For a whole subset of this community, buying and using apple product makes them geeks. for others it's being console gamers. For others it's computer tweaking. For others it's spending large amounts of time on Internet. Once again it's neither a good or bad point, it's just a blurred limits-community that formed during the age of internet. It created many subcultures, that sometimes have very few in common aside this label : "geeks"

I don't think a furry community is going to be an automatic fail, far from it. From what I've seen myself furries, from all horizons tends to be passionate, but this passion could become an hindrance if they don't agree in wich direction to put their efforts into. If nothing else than "furry" describe the community one want to create, then it might very well end up with volunteers believing they were going for an "all green food" group, others to a zoophilia sex club, some others for a "create your fursuit step by step" and others for a "all cons around the globe" marathon.

I think it's possible, heck, I even want it to be possible, really, but it will demand a lot of efforts, and their will be quite a share of misteps, misinterpretations and some incompatibilities. All other communities over the world had those, we're no exceptions because were "furries", that's what our diversity calls for and really, I believe that's for the better.

Now, thought, one last point I'd like to add, is that, either the OP was very upset at the mere idea, or himself tried something like that and it failed, or it was just a bad day, but both letters, and the second even more than the first comes out as quite aggressive and angered, and getting your point through isn't always easy, when you sound like you're screaming at someone, and end up scolding them as if they were stupid kids, and you the only responsible adult.

Reply
BB
10/31/2013 04:47:59 am

(Forgive me for not reading your guys' comments yet)
To the writer-in:
I understand your points, but I do not think the conclusions follow. Your anger/frustration was just spilling out onto my screen as I read this... I hope you can vent and heal. <3 (Also, please forgive me if this is a bit jumbled... I am still waking up.)

I think you are a bit hasty in saying that furry is amoral. I think there are certain values that the majority of us (furry and otherwise) would agree on. Whether there is a posted code of ethics “at the door” is a different thing entirely. Communities and societies rely on self-regulation and self-policing to keep social order (don't interrupt with an objection just yet). Since we operate inside existing social structures (such as our countries), we do, as individuals, have certain expectations on what acceptable behavior is defined as. This same thing applies to non-furries within the same country. This might seem confusing to you, if you are relying on your perceptions of furry from online interactions only (although, if you are “around” online much at all, you would note that this same sort of behavior takes place *everywhere*, not just on furry websites/forums. Anonymity brings out the worst in people sometimes...). While online interactions are allowed a lot of freedom and tolerance (as a lot of this really does fall into the category of “fantasy”), you would find that in real life things are a bit different.

Why this all seems incompatible with furry to you is really beyond me. It already happens within furry on a daily basis. We sometimes choose roommates, friends, significant others within furry—the same things that non-furries do. We form and participate in local furry communities with others. While there is no Central Furry High Command Headquarters that sends out orders to all of us, there IS structure within these mini-communities. Perhaps the structure is a bit different, but the senior members who have taken responsibility for the group will generally set down rules for a meet, and look out for the well-being of the other members of the community. These are not things that are done indiscriminately.

Obviously, since this is all happening already, the whole lack-of-definition doesn't seem to be keeping the already existing community from continuing to function. Perhaps the problem is simply your desire for a definition...

Reply
Max Goof
11/1/2013 09:50:47 am

I would disagree with the letter writer that we don't have an underlying interest that unites us. You don't get over 5000 people to Pittsburgh every year without something in common, that commonality being an interest in anthropomorphic animals.

That's all you need to make a "community". I doubt it will ever be totally self-sustaining. No community ever really is. We all need each other in the long run, whether we agree with each other or not.

Let me make a comparison here, if I may:

Yes, the furry community has a LOT of different values and cultures. But if you remove everyone who disagrees with you, you will end up making the community very, very, VERY small.

The Dementia community did that, literally chasing out anyone who did not agree with the more vocal member of the community, or at least remaining silent. Every Dementia convention I have ever attended have had the same 50 people in them, and I felt very unwelcome much of the time. For a group that claims to be very tolerant, they have turned into one of the most bigoted and intolerant groups I have ever been a part of.

The furry community ALMOST went that direction, but cooler heads prevailed, and the community is growing as a result.

Reply
Former Fur
11/2/2013 06:00:14 pm

Yes, the furry fandom does suck this much. It enables use, and abuse, of others. It actively promotes xenophobia, while loudly proclaiming to be "all inclusive". There have been several articles published in this very column that are excellent examples of this.

Many people will point to a diversity of groups within furry fandom. However, the reality is that these groups exist simply as separate entities claiming a common "kinship". There bare no real relationship to one another. Many barely tolerate the others, several are looked down upon, and when possible, ridiculed, and ostracized. Some only exist under this very wide, and entirely artificial umbrella called "furry fandom" simply through shear stubbornness, or possibly blindness.

Conventions draw thousands, therefore furry fandom must be a community, someone has argued. There may be a shared interested, but only because that interest is so broadly defined that it covers virtually everything, and anything. To put it another way, you don't actually have thousands attending the same conventions. You have dozens, maybe hundreds attending multiple conventions, and parties that simply happen to be occurring at the same time, and at the same place.

Basically, I grew up, realized the harm furry fandom does to those who remain a part of it, and got out. I only found out about this column because I know a few people who have not yet escaped. Some of them are slowly waking up. For others, I can only shake my head as I watch the slow train wreck furry fandom is making of their lives.

Reply
Anonfur45572
11/18/2013 12:18:08 pm

You are such a dramatic person. Now tell me Mr. "Former Fur", you are arguing that the Fandom enables the use and abuse of others and actively promotes xenofhopia (hmm interesting thing) where in the hell you get that? Personnal experiences? Cmon! That´s Bullshit! Prove me that Im wrong! Because my experiences with other furs were no like that. One thing that is true is that ive seen how some furries treat other furries like if they were garbage BUT just in rare ocassions."The reality is that these groups exist simply as separate entities claiming a common "kinship". OF COURSE, like in other groups, fandoms, communities, etcetera, in each organisation there the called subgroups, which is a common thing and it makes the furdom more "diverse" and despite the variety of values, beliefs, hobbies or whatever you would like to add, the Furry Fandom, since it was created, had been in function (maybe in not the best way) and so on. One of my reasons why I joined the fandom its cause I can express myself without being crticized my way of how am I. One last thing that I would like to add is this fragment of your comment that left me thinking: "Basically, I grew up, realized the harm furry fandom does to those who remain a part of it, and got out. I only found out about this column because I know a few people who have not yet escaped. Some of them are slowly waking up. For others, I can only shake my head as I watch the slow train wreck furry fandom is making of their lives" What I understood is that the Furry Fandom its a childish stuff that HARMS (thing that I consider absolutely false) for those who remain on it and "ruins" lifes.
You know something? You remember me those furs who got out from the fandom just because they become disillusioned, coinsidently.
P.S: And yes, Im mad. Have nice day.

Reply
Troj
11/16/2013 11:23:21 am

Particularly in certain younger furry circles, I've noticed that it is somewhat *en vogue* to complain about about how terrible, gross, creepy, and dysfunctional furries are. (It reminds me somewhat of how SomethingAwful goons will often grouse and sneer about the general awfulness of goons.)

I think part of it is bitterness and disenfranchisement stemming from having actually encountered or dealt with stupid idiots in the fandom, and part of it is not wanting to be rejected or laughed at by the larger culture, and not wanting to be at the nadir of the geek totem pole.

There are furries in the world who royally suck, of course, but wherever you go in life, every group, tribe, circle, and organization will have people who suck in some way or another. Furries are hardly unique in this respect.

Overall, I've found furries to be among some of the kindest, gentlest, most imaginative people I've had the pleasure to know--in fact, that furries as a culture are so inclusive and so friendly is both their greatest strength and their greatest weakness, because it means that not-so-nice and not-so-well-intentioned individuals sometimes exploit the kindness and tolerance of the general community.

I *would* actually argue that the mainstream furry community does share certain values in common, because to my mind, being drawn to talking animal people, stuffed animals, and mascots/costumed characters tends to imply the presence of certain personality traits and related interests, and the absence of others. There's a reason not everybody who likes Disney movies identifies as "furry," to my mind.

If a group of furs were to create a furry community, the main thing would be to make sure that the core people involved with the project are responsible, task-oriented, sane, and mature, AND make sure to draft explicit policies on how to formally deal with grievances, disputes, and use of public spaces, and the like.

Reply
K L
8/12/2014 04:47:06 am

I'd say the best way to do it is to just make a community of subcommunities. Like states in a nation. Each state has it's own likes and values, and attracts those with the same, while remaining more or less independent from other communities while still falling under the definition of being furry.

Reply



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