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  • Ask Papabear

Circumcision Pros and Cons

4/22/2015

10 Comments

 
Dear Papabear,

I was circumcised for, if I remember correctly, medical/hygienic reasons. I was fine with the way I looked "down there" until I read several Psychology Today articles saying that circumcision had several negative neurological and psychological effects, such as increasing sensitivity to future pain, causing bottling in of emotions, etc. (the articles can be found here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe, https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201501/circumcision-s-psychological-damage). Other than "bottling in emotions" and maybe something else*, my symptoms occurred after reading the articles describing them, as far as I can tell. Is there any way to know for sure if the symptoms are simply the result of being told "if you are circumcised, you have these symptoms" or not?

*I had to get surgery once. For some reason, I had to have an empty bladder prior to the operation, but I couldn't go while being in the same room as the doctor. Listening to running water didn't help, so I had to have a catheter. I cried from the pain of the insertion, and briefly entertained thoughts of torturing the doctor who'd put the catheter in as revenge (although I know that torture is unethical). I'm not sure if this is related to being circumcised or not.

Alec (age 20)

* * *

Dear Alec,

An interesting topic, and thanks for bringing it up. The jury is still largely out on whether or not circumcision is a good idea for males (to distinguish it from circumcision of females, which is definitely not a good idea). Historically, circumcision goes back to ancient Jewish tradition. Genesis 17:10–14 states:

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Among Jews, it is a religious rite called the brit milah. Christians do it, too, since they come from that tradition, although without the ceremony and in a doctor’s office, rather than at home performed by a rabbi (and, of course, not to say all Jews have a rabbi do it). As with some other commandments in the Bible, such as not eating ham with milk, the practice probably came into being for health reasons. Antibiotics had yet to be invented, and infections could easily be a death sentence. Today, being uncircumcised can still be problematic, and the Centers for Disease Control still recommend the procedure, saying that it can help prevent everything from urinary tract infections to cancer and HIV. This recommendation, made in 2014, reinforced a 1999 recommendation by the American Academy of Pediatrics.

There is also a growing movement, however, away from the practice. My own mother did not believe in it, saying that circumcision was unnecessary mutilation. As a young kid who had to shower with the other boys after gym class, I used to curse her because I was so embarrassed to be the only one in the shower with a foreskin (indeed, a huge reason many parents in the past circumcised boys was they were fearful their kids would be teased in the showers at school). Today, I am thankful she left my penis alone.... More on that below.

I have never heard of the author of the article in Psychology Today that you have here, so I looked up this Lilli Cannon on the Internet, finding her blog, www.moralogous.com, and the bio in it that states she is a “parent, wife, entrepreneur, thinker, armchair psychologist, amateur anthropologist.” None of these things makes her a physician or psychologist, so I would definitely take her advice with a big grain of salt. In fact, I’m surprised her article was published in Psychology Today. She’s an amateur, as am I, which is why my website clearly states I’m not a doctor or trained counselor. I also note that in her article she provides no links to scientific studies, only, bizarrely, links concerning animal welfare.

In recent years in the United States have seen a downward trend because there have also been studies saying there are really no benefits and that it is, really, mutilation. An entire organization—Intact America—has been established to educate people about what it feels are myths about circumcision.

Am I confusing you yet? Well, that’s because the medical community can often contradict itself. Here, briefly, is what I think about circumcision: 1) it is largely continued today because of religious and social reasons, not health reasons; 2) it is a simple way for a doctor to make a quick buck, charging $200 to $800 for the procedure in the United States; 3) yes, it is extremely painful to the infant and often done without anesthetic, doctors even once believing that newborns didn’t experience pain as much as adults do (that screaming didn’t indicate pain?); 4) while it is true that bacteria can grow under the foreskin, this is easily resolved with good hygiene practices. The reason you see higher rates of infections in places like rural Africa is because hygiene is more problematic there. Men with foreskins can greatly reduce their risk to be about the same as circumcised men by thoroughly cleaning the head of the penis daily, and also doing so immediately after sexual intercourse (if done without protection) or by simply wearing a condom (always a good idea, says my buddy Critter *tip o’ the hat*).

Even though I don’t respect Cannon much because that article in Psychology Today was poorly done, it actually might be true, according to research I found (hey, Cannon, why didn’t you support your claims? sheesh). According to this study http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/ circumcision can, indeed, cause Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, leading to depression, anger, and even suicide in later years. On a less-significant, but still important, level, the removal of the foreskin lowers the sensitivity of the penis and, hence, makes sex less pleasurable (thanks, Mom).

Now, does Papabear believe that your circumcision led to your emotional issues? This is questionable for the reason that you state you didn’t have any problems until after you read the article by Cannon. It sounds like what hypochondriacs do, believing they have a disease only when they learn about it. If everyone who was circumcised became emotionally impaired, the world would be an utter disaster. Perhaps it increases such risks, but does not necessarily lead to them. As for your doctor visit, that could be attributed to anxiety—also, very odd that the doctor insisted on being in the same room because usually they hand you a cup and tell you to fill it in the bathroom.

To answer your question, then, no, it is not possible to state for an absolute certainty whether or not being circumcised has affected you in some way. My advice would be to stop obsessing about it, because that will just create a self-fulfilling prophecy: the more you worry, the more it will disturb you, the greater the risk of you actually becoming emotionally impaired. Don’t blame your “bottling in” of emotions on your surgery. Instead, look for ways to calm yourself, enjoy your current life as you are, and count your blessings. Look for the good in life and stop focusing on the bad, whether real or imaginary, and you’ll be much better off.

Hugs,

Papabear

P.S. Circumcision can actually be reversed through surgery or, with the use of weights or elastic straps, nonsurgical procedures. Consult your physician if you wish to consider your options.

UPDATE April 23, 2015

Here is a GREAT article provided by my buddy Furisky about the foreskin and the U.S. medical community. A must-read: http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.in/2013/05/the-foreskin-why-is-it-such-secret-in.html?m=1

10 Comments
Alec
4/22/2015 10:12:52 am

I said that the symptoms occurred after reading the article "as far as I can tell"; I was thinking that they could have been expressed earlier, but I had yet to recognize them as what they were. The doctor was in the room because I was in bed at the time, and wasn't allowed to get up for whatever reason.

My reason for asking my question was because I was wondering if I should protest circumcision, and I wanted this decision to be based on logic, not emotions (not that I don't empathize with people who dislike having been circumcised; I don't want to commit myself to something while intense emotions are clouding my judgement). I wanted to be sure that circumcision actually was psychologically damaging before I said it was.

Reply
Papabear
4/23/2015 01:57:19 am

You can feel free to protest circumcision because of the reasons I provided. You don't need my permission to do so, whether your reasons for protest come by logic or emotion. People often denigrate emotion as inferior to intellect; not me. I find both equally valid. We are emotional beings, and if something like circumcision causes emotional pain, then that is a valid argument against it. As for the first paragraph, I merely reply to the information I have at hand, hon. It is the responsibility of the writer to tell me fully what is going on. Partial facts result in incomplete answers. Thank you.

Reply
Critter link
4/22/2015 10:41:03 am

Hmmm, this is a hot button topic. Why do you say "circumcision of females, which is definitely not a good idea" but think it's OK to consider it for males? Both male and female can be more or less extreme, is it all right for females if it's just a small nick?

My question is not theoretical, this came up in 1996 in Seattle. The reaction was pretty interesting and shows how much the debate is about emotion and not reason:
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960913&slug=2348974

How about this: just let all children, male or female, remain as they were born until they are 18, then let them decide. I have a pretty good idea about how many grown men will decide to have the operation, why do we impose this on an infant?

One thing that most men don't realize is how much skin is removed, it's about a third of the skin of the penis.

Reply
Papabear
4/23/2015 01:53:27 am

On Female Circumcision: the answer, Critter, is that female circumcision has absolutely no health benefits, while it can be argued that some benefits might come from male circumcision. Furthermore, the primary reason for female circumcision (mostly in third-world nations) is to deliberately decrease female enjoyment of sex because those cultures feel women shouldn't enjoy it. That is why I said female circumcision is ALWAYS bad. As for forbidding male circumcision until 18, that would eliminate the practice, I bet; who would opt for it at that age? Anyway, I'm actually personally against circumcision, but I always try to see both sides of the issue.

Reply
Critter link
4/23/2015 12:03:47 pm

Well, I was going to link to some comments but your updated link covers most everything except the claimed benefits of female circumcision (just do a web search for "female circumcision health benefits"). Cirp.org also has a wealth of material.

However, as to the comments about emotion - as a certain pointy ear individual once said, "Fascinating!" Unlike that person, I agree with Papabear that emotion is not only a factor but a vital one in making decisions. For example, in deciding to marry someone or in choosing a career, it would be a bad idea indeed to ignore your feelings.

On the other paw, I would hope that an elected official who had a gut level disgust for homosexuality would use reason to figure out that civil rights for lesbians and gays is the right thing to do despite his emotions.

When it comes to cutting off a part of a baby's body (by definition without their consent), I believe reason should prevail over emotion.

Thanks for a great discussion, Papabear, I appreciate the open mind and generous heart you bring to the table.

Reply
Backdrop12
5/13/2015 03:04:54 pm

Now about the surgery, It will just return the gliding action AND NOT THE NERVES. That is why I think it is not worth it on the grounds that I do not think the benefits outweigh the cons at the present moment.

I know foregen may do clinical trials of regenerating in the next 5 years : http://www.foregen.org/

Also the problem with some intact people is that they look down on the circumcise and they think that they are " monsters" and use the " foreskin pride " as a way to shame people who were circumcised already. Yet, when in reality ,we are human , We go to work , we love , we give , we receive, and we all love sex. Also the fact is that we never were given the choice and thus , should not be receiving this discrimination ( now I understand you view , it is really most of the intactivists that do it ).

People with foreskin need to understand that sure , we lost sensitivity , but ITS NOT ALL GONE . We enjoy the same amount of sex at the same level as those who were uncut. we feel pleasure and intense emotional bond at the same level as those who are uncut, we love and cherish our mates and give nothing but the best the same way as an uncut male would. Really, people who worry about these things just ruins my sex life not because of the uncut , but the now cut that think they are nothing but deformed human beings that never will have a sex life , but that is totally untrue.

Hell, if uncut men/ intactivists really did care, then they would of help with regenerating everything YEARS AGO. Uncut men need to understand ( overall ) that sure Uncut is different than cut , but we are all the same in terms of just getting pleasure in a different type of way.

For my opinion on my own circumcision, I never had a problem with it . I had sex with people no problem and I am sensitive to a point where it is awesome ( not body orgasm , but with me having mini panic attacks just by sensitivity of touching my body , would not work out ). It could also help with any medical conditions that come along such as cancer and diabetes. For me , both sides of my family had diabetes and my mom side had penile cancer. Wether it is wrong or not , anything that tells me it would decrease the risk that I already have ( which is VERY high ) , I would be right on board with it in terms of precaution.

( just my opinions no need to fight over it X3 )


So yea rant over .Just needed to clear it off my chest somewhat X3

Reply
Papabear
5/14/2015 08:15:46 am

Great Scott! I guess I'm out of the loop, because I have never heard of "intactivists" and have never heard of anyone who is uncircumcised thinking that those who were circumcised were less than human or didn't enjoy sex or whatever. I, for one, would certainly never tell a circumcised person he was a monster! Good gravy! And, judging by what I have seen, a circumcised man can certainly have a damn good time with his penis LOL.

Anyway, to sum up my opinion on this: I believe circumcision is unnecessary. And people react in different ways to the circumcised and the uncut. Also, men react in different ways to what has been done to their genitals or not. Many men are fine with how they are, one way or the other, and others are not. Take it on a case-by-case basis. We are all individuals, as my college biology professor Dr. Wu used to always say. And, however we are, whoever we are, we should be treated humanely and with consideration.

Reply
Critter link
5/14/2015 10:56:59 am

Yowza! Never heard of anybody being shamed because they were cut, that's not right.

As for restoration, there's non-surgical approach that just stretches the skin you have. Takes some patience but it does work. Doesn't restore nerves or the tiny muscles that keep it in place of course. It does restore the nature of the glans, though. The glans is normally a mucous membrane, smooth and moist.

I did this kind of restoration years ago out of curiosity more than anything else. It's more comfortable to me but didn't make any big difference in how sex feels.

I don't believe there's any huge difference in the experience between the two and certainly no reason to put anybody down about it.

Reply
Alec
5/15/2015 08:04:26 am

I checked out that CDC link. It said that there are big decreases in the chances of contracting HPV, UTIs, etc., but it didn't say what the decrease was relative to--for example, say you have a 90% chance of getting cancer--reducing that figure by 60% would leave you with a 10.5% chance of getting cancer, which is good; if the baseline number was 10%, it'd reduce your chances to about 0.17%, which isn't as impressive. The page says that circumcision reduces the risk of UTIs, but the next sentence says that one of the risks of circumcision is infection.
I'm thinking of talking with my parents about circumcision, but I can't remember why I originally felt the need to do so--should I talk to them? If we end up having this conversation, I'll do my best to word things in a way that makes it clear I don't blame them. Should I or shouldn't I highlight the fact that I view circumcision as quackery? Should I mention my train of thought that "if circumcision is a routine practice, then that must mean that a lot of babies are born with foreskins (otherwise it couldn't be "routine"), which must mean that having a foreskin is what nature/God intended, and that having a foreskin isn't as harmful as you were probably led to believe"?
In response to some of the above posts: "we enjoy the same amount of sex". I might be the exception, not the rule, but my glans has rubbed against my underwear for a long time and has built up a protective callus that doesn't feel much.
"Doesn't restore nerves" I actually think that it might. Consider that the adult body has more skin than a child or teenager. The fact that this additional skin is healthy and can feel shows that it isn't just skin that grows, but blood vessels and other things, too.
"certainly no reason to put anybody down about it" amen

Reply
Critter link
5/15/2015 08:56:54 am

Good point about statistics, Alec. The "so and so %" reduction is often misleading.

As it turns out, penile cancer happens in less than one man in 100,000 (< 0.001 %) and is less than 1% of all cancers in men. (Per CDC).

So it's an incredibly rare condition. To use the analogy of taking out an appendix at birth, the rate of appendicitis is in the neighborhood of 150 per 100,000 so why don't we take out the appendix of babies? Well, because performing surgery on someone who does not have a disease and is unable to consent is unethical. Except in one case.

I have no problem with an adult who wants to get cut - go for it. Just leave the babies alone, both girls and boys.

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